Sunday, January 18, 2009

Recap: MBS Sunday Brunch for Jan 18

Our topic this week was reactions to an advice column. The question came from a young woman who wanted to remain a virgin, but had an interest in experimenting with spanking. I think our advice was a lot more relevant that that provided by the columnist.

Janeen: Wow, that's really a tough one. It’s tough because if she does find a spanker who agrees to even a fully clothed OTK spanking (the mildest spanking I can think of) with no sexual strings attached, I'm afraid that it may be very tempting for her. I'm assuming her interest in spanking is a sexual turn-on for her though, so I could be way off here.

I would suggest an older, more experienced spanker, possibly someone who would seem like an authority figure to her, and therefore off limits.

I'm afraid, though, that the experience she's really craving will not manifest itself, and her desires will not be met.

If she is saving her virginity for a future special someone, I really think that until she makes that special connection with someone, and is completely secure and comfortable with the relationship, she will find that any other spanking situation does not fulfill her desires.

In a roundabout way, I'm trying to say, if her virginity is as precious to her as I think it is, then this is of equal importance and it should maybe be put off until she finds the intimate, fulfilling relationship of the future.

Of course, if she already has that relationship, but is perhaps waiting until marriage to consummate the relationship, then as I said earlier, the spanking may be way too tempting.

I feel for her, and wish her the best of luck.

Janeen, it's wonderful to see you again. Welcome back!

Daisy: I get what she is saying and I can identify with it. I read the answer and understood what he was saying. But boy, did he do it the long way round! What a load of bulls!

I would say to her, that there is no need to tell every prospective bf that she is a virgin. This excites them and they want to be the one to break her, so to speak. It’s best to keep that to herself. If they are only dating her to get laid, that’s their problem when she says no, as long as she has not been leading them on! She should date carefully, take things slowly, and not even get them into sexy conversations until she has confidence in the strength of the relationship. As for spanking, I would say, curb those desires until she has a steady partner she trusts. She is not averse to petting, it seems, but does not want full sex until she is in a very committed relationship. I am 51 this year, and have always lived that way too. Hence, I have only ever known my husband intimately, and my new fiance, so it’s possible!

The time to tell a man she is a virgin, I would say, is when they are committed to each other, and the subject comes up. He will be chuffed that she waited, and that he is considered the "worthy man."

I think spanking is even more personal and intimate than sex. It is easy for this desire/need to be misunderstood, or for two people's ideas to be way different as to what constitutes a spanking. Much trust is needed between people who wish to incorporate spanking into their lives, and it brings an intimacy that may not have ever been there, even with years of living together! Very good communication is needed, and boy, so many married couples never TALK to each other!

Hermione: The young lady states that when she is physically involved, she also becomes emotionally involved. Spanking produces just as much physical involvement as intercourse, so she shouldn't count on being able to remain detached. Also, losing her virginity to a caring person with whom she has a relationship is a lot different from losing it to a stranger who gets her drunk and then takes advantage. As an aside, finding out whether a companion is interested in spanking prior to making a commitment is as important as ensuring compatibility in other ways.

I would suggest that if she truly wants to experience spanking only, she should consider an older, experienced top, and lay out the ground rules right at the start. As for how to find such a person, attending a spanking party might provide the opportunity.

Kallisto: There have been some good comments already. I also thought a spanking party might be the answer. Barring that, I think she might be wise to wait, as she doesn't seem to realize just how erotic spanking can be.

Jean Marie: As people have said, TALKING it over is crucial. The advice guy at missed the mark because she may be able to find a sensitive top with whom she could reach some understanding. Perhaps mutual masturbation after the spanking session would satisfy all parties while keeping her virginity intact. But something more needs to be said. As a school teacher, I mentor a student teacher every semester. It gives me a good indication of the mindset of early twenty-something women. I've been amazed at how many of these women think that giving head and even receiving anal sex does not constitute "sex." So virginity is an open-ended term that needs to be defined.

I'd tell her to take it one small step at a time, and to enjoy the journey.

Andrades Girl: What a fascinating and complex question. I wish the person who wrote the question could come here and read all of the great answers that you have gotten already. A few questions come to my mind. What does it mean for her to remain a virgin? She says she likes kissing and touching, but touching is a very generic answer. Does it mean all other forms of sex, but not intercourse? Does she want to experience the spanking only for discipline and not at all for the sensory and erotic feel of it? For me (and I am not speaking for anyone else), even though I am very interested in the discipline side of spankings, I don't think I could separate out the erotic nature of a spanking, especially if the panties are removed. I think Hermione’s advice is excellent. Finding an older experienced man who will just spank her might really help start this journey. I also think she needs to do some more research, read some spanking stories, find some spanking blogs, and read some articles of yours.

Zille: Oh, wow, that poor woman!

I was sort of going along with that advice during the whole “carrying a bottle of nitroglycerin through the streets of Pamplona during the running of the bulls” thing, and his take was interesting on how guys deal with becoming the physically superior of the sexes (I’ll have to ask my Master if he agrees or not), but when I got to the long rant about how dangerous power exchange play is, I just got increasingly annoyed.

Has this guy never heard of BDSM (either Safe Sane and Consensual or Risk-Aware Consensual Kink)?! I mean, there’s a huge community in the US alone which has been set up to take power exchange activities like spanking, and make them less like a kid playing with fire, and more like an adult making a fire in a fireplace (there’s still a risk of burning down your house, but you have been taught how to make it as safe as possible – I could take the comparison further by saying that, if you don’t clean out your chimney it’s the same risk – i.e. more likely to burn down the house – as not being self-aware and cleaning out your and emotional baggage before you do kinky activities).

I would advise this gal to hie herself down to the local BDSM group! Learn about how communication is taught and stressed in BDSM relationships, and then look for someone who wants to spank her, but is okay with not getting sex in the mix. (Is she okay with blow-jobs, I wonder, because that could fix a lot of problems!) Note that she wouldn’t even have to date someone in “the scene.” Once she had learned the ways that BDSM folk have learned to communicate their desires and dislikes (and their emotional boundaries, and lots of other handy things!), then she could explain those things to potentially anyone she liked, and if they “got it,” they would be much safer to run around with, “carrying a bottle of nitroglycerin.”

Hells, this man didn’t even mention safewords, which is just an amazing concept, and has spilled over from the BDSM community to other kinky communities, even a number of vanilla people know about it.

So, to me, this gal’s problem isn’t at all involving nitroglycerin or bulls. It’s easily fixed by dating people who will use safewords, and who have learned how to communicate their desires – i.e., many of the people in the BDSM community – or just learning from the BDSMers how to have your virginity and have kinky play, too!

Tiggs: I can't help but agree that she should wait, at least until she has a trusted friend whom she could ask to spank her. Trust and limits are the two biggest factors in making spanking (and sex, too) a good thing. And they are also the two things that can destroy the beauty of it all.

Communication is also necessary, open communication from both parties involved, so each person knows and respects implicitly the rights and wants of the other. Without that, it simply isn't worth the risks!

But trust issues are big for me right now out here in cyberia, as you can easily see by my post today. So this question raised now, in this way, just sent up big flashing warning signs! Maybe bigger than usual, but I think I'd still have replied the same way on any other day.

Jo the Mama: Load of bulls, ha!

I think the idea of experimenting with someone she knows and trusts is good. I’m not sure about all the dire rape warnings though.

I'm also a bit mystified by the idea that there is casual sex with drunken strangers, or sex with the man you marry, and no middle ground? What about long term relationships that don't lead to marriage? This is a good way to get to know yourself.

I think what she's talking about can lead to divorce... Practicing relationships is good.

Hi, Jo, and welcome!

Lucy: This is actually a very timely topic for me. About a year after Jekyll and I split up, I met Simon online. We talked for a while and agreed to meet. I realized that although spanking is obviously a sexual turn on for me, I had no desire to take this relationship into a sexual realm. We met several times and didn't go any farther than spanking. We got along well as friends, which I think helped, but it definitely felt like something was missing when it ended there. I am still a virgin and while I don't necessarily intended to stay that way long term, I have no intention of losing it to someone with whom I'm in such a casual relationship.

With Jekyll, we were so young that it was perfectly acceptable to "do everything but." The relationship also started as vanilla, so spanking wasn't an issue when we first met.

I would say that it is possible to experience spanking without sex, but for people with a sexual interest in spanking, one tends to lead to the other, or at the very least makes us wish we could have sex. I would say that, if she does decide to pursue this, to be careful and make sure that it is understood that sex is not part of the bargain.

Indy: I agree with the advice to seek a local spanking group or to go to a spanking party. While I'm sure sex goes on behind the scenes at such parties, it is emphatically not the default option. Attending such parties and talking to experienced female tops would be a good way for the questioner to identify appropriate tops for her.

Going to such a party would provide an education for the columnist, too.

The older, experienced top option isn't a bad idea in itself, but she should proceed cautiously. There are plenty of self-appointed "experts" out there whose counsel is definitely best avoided.

Texringer: Daisy said my thoughts very well. "As for spanking, I would say, curb those desires until she has a steady partner she trusts." I really think this aspect of sex needs to wait until she's ready for more basic aspects with the right partner.

Before my husband-to-be agreed to try spanking with me, I spent some time looking for a non-sexual spanker. I was looking for a disciplinarian to help keep me on my gym schedule. I don't think there is such a critter. Most of the spankers I "auditioned," so to speak were (reasonably, I admit) sexually aroused by the experience and I wasn't in a situation to participate in that with them. Others who professed to be just the disciplinarian, were all way too into serious BDSM, so that didn't work, either.

As hard as it is to wait for something you really want, I'd advise our young woman to find the right partner first, then explore spanking.

Welcome to you as well, Texringer! Thank you for sharing your experience.

Thoughtful Spanker: In a few ways, I agree with the answer he gave. While it doesn't show a lot of understanding of the people with whom we as a group interact, his advice and comparisons just might apply to a male outside our little circle.

I think he should have hooked her up with one or more of the blogs on your blogroll. Reading and talking things through with experienced spankees and spankers would provide a wealth of information to her.

And I have to agree with Texringer, disconnecting the erotic element from spanking is difficult and, at least for me, a frustrating endeavor.

Bonnie: I could easily write an entire post on this case, but I will try for once to be succinct.

Above all, our friend needs to know herself. What are her core values and priorities? If preserving her virginity is more important than exploring spanking, how willing is she to forgo the latter in favor of the latter? Is spanking inherently sexual (as it is for many of us) or can she effectively separate the two? Would she even consider a spanking from someone who is not on the “husband track.” Is spanking a passing interest or a prerequisite for any future partner? The answers to these questions will largely define the correct next move.

I disagree with the nitroglycerin and running bulls analogy. This young woman is inexperienced, but she’s not reckless. The fact that she thought to inquire (albeit to the wrong expert) before diving in suggests that she is aware of the potential risk. What she needs most is support, understanding, and helpful answers.

If you’re out there, Miss Pragmatic, please consider the wisdom you read here.

Thank you, everyone, for sharing your insights!


Dr. Ken said...

After reading the column, I felt like the advice columnist was more interested in running up his word count than in actually giving advice. And most of what he wrote about struck me as irrelevant.

I find myself agreeing with the idea that she should perhaps seek out a spanking party with a group such as Chicago Crimson Moon. It would give her a chance to talk about spanking with people who really know the subject. Spanking is the only sanctioned activity at groups like this--it's a spanking club, NOT a sex club, so her virgin status should not be in any kind of jeopardy--plus she could ask around to find a partner who would be safe to play with. Playing in public--like in the main party room, with other people about--adds another degree of safety for her.
I hope she works it out.

A.S.S. said...

Hi Bonnie,
Little late here, but really enjoyed the topic. Found some of the "find an experienced, older spanker" advice, well... interesting. Seems to infer that an older man wouldn't be interested in sex. Uh, yea... not exactly!

Know a spanker in his early 70s. Very-very friendly man and easy to talk with. Has been dishing out spankings longer than either of us has been alive. He spanks lots of younger women that have zero interest in sex... they just want the spanking (being it discipline, role-play, etc... but nothing sexual). He gives those spankings and knows how to do it well. But he's open with friends that *he* gets a sexual rush out of it.

He also doesn't have a problem with things like roaming hands... and pretty much getting away with whatever he can until he gets a clear stop sign. Nice guy and all... but his approach to spanking isn't exactly honest and he's looking to get what he wants out it.

There are honest and dishonest people found in all age ranges. Just as there are spankos of all ages that are into erotic play and those that are not... and those that respect limits and those that don't.

Instead of trying to pick a 'safe' age or experience range, which doesn't exist... we like the idea of picking a safe environment. The larger party groups we've personally gone to... Florida Moonshine, Texas All-State and Shadow Lane... offer just that. There are strict rules against sexual play and they are enforced in the group areas/rooms. Lots and lots of "just spanking" goes on. As safe as it gets.

And while folks are free to do as they please in their own rooms... word quickly gets out if someone doesn't respect limits. So things are very safe there too (though, not quite 100%).

From the party scene, she could meet and get to know people... get feedback from others... and find safe spankers. No quick way to do that though. No finding an older guy shortcut.

Todd & Suzy

Anonymous said...

Bonnie, you introduced Cassie.
Did you know, she was PK of New Beginnings.

Thanks for your answer

Bonnie said...

Petra - No, I had no idea.

Caroline Grey said...

Wow, that is an interesting one. I never had sex with a spanking partner until I was in an actual romantic relationship with one. Granted, I wasn't in the scene that long before my relationship began, but even today, I play will all kinds of people without having sex with any of them.

The columnist was spewing a lot of nonsense, I think, but in between there was some good stuff...I did think he had a point about a.) exploring it in a controlled environment, rather than a potential relationship, but even more crucially, b.) talking to other women who have experience of these things. I learned more from girlfriends in the scene when I was starting out that I did even from the excellent tops I played with.

I also got chills when he said ": You will have experienced the terror of being an object of no consequence, an object to which a virtual stranger does what he wants just because he can. You will have begun by exploring the exchange of power but end up experiencing the trauma of utter powerlessness and violation. Such an experience can take years to get over; it can alter the course of your life."

That happened to me...I was 20 and wandered into a BDSM club on my own, totally green, and hooked up with an irresponsible sadist. It shut me down for several years. If I'd known about any of the great socially oriented spanking groups out there it would have saved me a lot of trouble. I wish the columnist had done a little research and pointed her in the direction of a few of those.

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